Wriging

Spot on bloglily. After all,, good design will only help people find what they want. If your site doesn't have anything anyone wants, what good is your design?

I think blog post critiques would be most helpful. And I'd love to get points for a decent critique.

If anyone would be willing to review some of my writing, I would greatly appreciate it. Keep in mind that I am 14... :) So judge me harder!

If you would review anything on my blog, that would be great. If you give good criticism, I will reward you 1 of my meager 9 points.

Hey arthus! I would be happy to give this a shot. Bloglily: Awesome idea! Back to arthus. If I had to guess, I would have to say that you need to get your damn life in order.

Far too often do I see young writers who are regress to writing as a source of escape and as a result (and ironically) their writing suffers. If bad things are going on in your life, you should definitely write about them but you should also do something about it.

You're young and that is a good, good thing.

Okay some technical advice? It sounds like you're trying to be too formal in your writing. In my writing I try to write like I talk. I would also read a lot, listen to people talk and enjoy other people's company.

Remember: if you don't really have much of a life, you're not going to have much to write about.

BTW sorry if that sounded a little harsh but that is one of my firm beliefs about creative writing and whatnot.

I am currently in desperate need of feedback. I am starting to implement a project I have been considering for a while and I am currently pushing ahead. The idea is to write a serialized novel with a new section every other day. Each section is at least 1000 words, and I am currently due to post the third section today. The catch is that I will not post the next section until I have received at least one comment on the previous post. The theory behind the rule is that it will force me to consider my audience, it will motivate me to continue, and finally the rule will hopefully convince more people to comment. I am currently on post three so there is very little reading to do.

Anyways, I would love anyone to check out the website and post feedback in the form of comments.

I just found 9rules today and am hesitant to post a full fledged note as I am not sure if it is polite to just simply ask for feedback.

Check out my site here!

Thanks!

Bloglily, I love, love, LOVE this idea! I need as much feedback as I can get, as I know many of us do.

I only started blogging a year ago, and that was the first time that I ever enjoyed writing. As I look back over the archives, I realize how much I've grown as a writer, and I know that I can continue to do so, if given some good feedback and constructive criticism.

I don't know the best incentive, though perhaps arthus was right on: if you'd like to review my writing, 1 point to you (any of you, that is!) for some quality feedback.

I'm not usually one to recommend writing books but there is one book that I like. On Writing Well by William Zinsser. I like him a lot. I had to read him for a class and a lot of what he says I can totally agree with.

He's a cool guy.

@Michael: I love that book. It's sitting not 1 meter from me at this moment. :)

@arthus: I'm with Michael (kind of). It appears that you have a pretty good writing style and you have voice, but your writings are sad. Now, sad writing is great. It's cathartic. So if that's why you write, then you're right on track. If, however, you want more readers subscribed to your feed and more daily hits, then you need to pepper in some more upbeat (or, at the very least, less depressing) stuff. While people may identify with one or more of your melancholic posts, they probably won't identify with all and, to be frank, it's depressing to read about another's sadness. That won't get you repeats. But again, it all depends on what your goal for blogging is. If you don't care about readers and want to focus on the health of your soul, then I say "keep going!" The only way to get better at writing is to write, and that's exactly what you're doing.

Ckinniburgh, I think there's nothing in the least wrong with posting a note asking for feedback. In fact, there are a few advantages to doing it that way, rather than in this thread

--you get people to pay attention to just your post
--you can keep everything in one place
--a critiquer can respond to things they hear from other people and from you

I'll certainly respond to anyone who asks for feedback. Generally, the system I've used and like is one in which it's absolutely mandatory to talk about a few specific things you think are working. And then you give a specific example of something you think needs work. You don't load people up with too much of either type of response. Humans can really only work on improving a few things at a time!

And I'll say it again because it's true: It helps a great deal to be specific.

As for points, I was also thinking about giving away some of my own for good critiques and courageous critique-seekers. (I've got six and my goal is to be all out by the end of the weekend. Maybe Ms. Tyme will wave her wand and give me a few more, who knows??)

No offense, but isn't this the reason we have comments on our blogs? I thought that was an open invitation to comment, leave feedback, critique?

Do we really need to say give me some feedback in addition to openly accepting comments?

Am I way off here? Am I missing the point?

Sweet we have another Zinsser fan. I got a kick out of the first chapter where he talks has that sitdown with that doctor writer guy. Two sides of the coin, both equally important.

@ErinR: I don't think it's a matter of "your readers won't like it" but rather I think it is important to be happy. There are plenty of sucessful miserable authors out there and while they are very talented and very rich or maybe still poor I am a firm believer in...not doing that.

@Michael & ErinR: I am not sitting as close to the book as you ErinR, however I would be looking directly at it if only my laptop's screen were not in the way.

@arthus: After reading ErinR's comments I feel like I want to say that I agree almost 100%. I think the question (which was implied by ErinR response) I would like to pose to you before commenting on your writing is this: What is your goal in bloging? I feel this is important as my responses will be very different if your intention is to reach a large audience than if it is to simply improve your own writing through writing more and being critiqued.

Do we really need to say give me some feedback in addition to openly accepting comments?

Am I way off here? Am I missing the point?

I don't expect my readers to critique my blog posts. In fact, if they pointed out every stylistic error I made or suggested ways to improve my writing skills, I would be upset. My comments are not a forum for critique, they're a forum for discussion of the topic I have chosen to bring up.

This is, of course, not to say that I don't want critiqued. I do. It's just that I'd feel like a child chastised by her parents in front of her friends if my readers nitpicked in such a public space. I'm a firm believer in the philosophy of "a time for everything and to everything its place," and I think this is just the place. :)

(p.s. bloglily, please don't assassinate me for the emoticon(s)! :D)

No offense taken, J-mathias. You ask a good question.

The comment box is not -- at least not in my view and not on my blog -- an implicit invitation to my readers to offer me a thoughtful critique of my writing. Most readers come to be amused, entertained and enlightened. They don't come to help me with my writing and I'm not sure I'd really want them to.

9rules, on the other hand, is a place people visit to see examples of high quality content, and to talk to like-minded bloggers (and some not so like-minded). For that reason, it seems like a terrific place to also get some specific writing feedback. I'm guessing that many people are a little nervous about asking for help, and I'd be surprised to see notes innundanted with "help me!" requests. But if someone's interested in getting help, more power to them for asking.

@bloglily: I guess I am just worried that people with j-mathias' opinion will be at all offended by what some might consider spamming notes asking for comments.

@j-mathias: I think I agree. I mean, It would be cool to have some list of blogs/blog posts that are looking for feedback and literary critiques but in the end I would far rather have someone commenting directly onto my site than here simply because I want everyone who reads the piece to see the comments. I am new here, so I don't know exactly how this point system works and I suppose it would be a reason to post feedback and that would become more difficult if you ask people to comment on your own site.

Honestly, I see both sides of the argument and I personally want to be on bloglily's side, however I will not be posting a note requesting feedback until I have become more familiar with the flow and structure of 9rules.

@Michael: Yes, it is true that I am writing some depressing stuff lately (since that's how I feel). However, I have refrained from posting some of the sadder writing of mine. Once this low passes, I should be able to write some more upbeat posts. Actually, I do have a life (I'm on like 5 committees, run a business, and am involved in sports and drama). (1 point to you)

@Erin: Basically, I like to write about what life is like and what I am finding. It keeps me from going insane. Therefore, when my life sucks, I write sad stuff. Of course, since I am a teenager, life almost always seems worse than it really is. In the future, I think I will simply not publish the sad writing (although I still write it for myself). (1 point for you)

@j-mathias: Comments are a form of discussion upon the idea in the writing. This thread is a method of critiquing the style in the writing.

@ckinniburgh: I have three goals in blogging:
1) improve my writing
2) gain some audience for my writing
3) keep myself sane

Arthus: I looked through a bit of your writing, and the best advice I can think of is to keep writing. Write to the point where you get sick and tired of writing (sometimes mis-labeled as writer's block) and then start to think about why you write, what you are doing when you're writing, and what you're trying to say with it all. When you really figure out what you're trying to say, it'll be 10x easier to write it and the result will be that much better.

Also, I suggest reading as much Edgar Allen Poe as possible, but also go out and find some authors that are the exact opposite, people who write bright and happy stories, and figure out what you like in all of it. With Poe you can really sense the purpose, the driving force in his writing, which is why it has become so popular despite it's dark and sad tones. There's a foreboding to his writing that is at this moment lacking from a lot of your's, not that you need to have that or mimic him at all, but it will help you find your own voice. Also, use less adjectives and write an entire piece simply focusing on how it flows. Set little exercises for yourself and attempt to accomplish one thing with your writing.

As to the original post by Bloglily: I think it's a great idea! The only drawback I can see is that the replies to posts often get sidetracked, but really that's only to accomplish something or answer someone's questions.

I'm open to critique. I'm also open to giving critique. (Whether I'm equipped to do so is debatable, but that's your call.)

Say the word.

@erin: You use metaphors well in your writing. I loved your most recent post about the tree of life/future. However, one thing I think you could improve upon is that you should start with some summary of the main idea. If you immediately start with the metaphor some readers will likely think it is simply some soppy post about your childhood. Overall, you have good writing that could just use a little reorganizing.

@Bartoneus: Yes, I do need to decide what I really want to be writing about. I have read some Edgar Allen Poe and plan to read more. I also enjoy reading dystopian literature because I care about government and philosophy. It is true that I do use a little too many adjectives (that comes from teachers yelling down my back). As I am still a developing writer (14), I can work on improving flow immensely. Thanks for the analysis! (1 point to you)

ckinniburgh -- You're very wise, I think, to want to get the lay of the land before you go for it.

Here's what I think about your first novel piece:

1. You're a good descriptive writer. This helped me picture your main character: "He wore black jeans, a ratty tee shirt under an unbuttoned white dress shirt and a golden cross around his neck"

One of the building blogs of good prose is detail -- the odd, dissonant detail that delivers a picture of a person or a place. It's not the white dress shirt we remember, but the unbuttoned white dress shirt. It's not the blue plate that sticks with you, but the blue plate with the shell shaped chip in the corner.

2. There's something allegorical about this piece that stiffens it a little, makes it seem formal and a bit inaccessible as a story. One thing that it might need to inject some life into it is names. It's easier to see a woman named Catherine than a woman named "Author," and a man named "Jess" than a man named "Man." (I think he was referred to as "man" anyway.)

Keep going! And keep reading the things you love with an eye to how the writer pulls stuff off. For example, you might want to take apart some dialogue in stories you like and see why it works. Is it shorter than yours? Longer? Do the characters argue and fight? How is one line of dialogue connected to the next in prose?

good luck and thanks for being so brave.

Here's an idea: how about if, instead of littering up the notes with requests for feedback, we have an occasional (weekly?) thread for people seeking feedback? I can see the appeal of keeping critiques from going all over the place.

Make it happen, bloglily.

And put me on the "Will give critique and be brutally honest about it" list.

@bloglily: That is a perfect idea, I think my biggest fear was that I would be seen as spamming the notes, however if a weekly thread existed it would allow people as hesitant as myself an opportunity to speak without the fear of distracting and annoying an entire community.

Thank you as well for the comments and critiques. If you have any other thoughts and such please feel free to comment directly on the post (I honestly don't mind, but it is far easier for me to keep track of critiques when they are all on one page.) I understand why most people wouldn't want comments full of writing critiques in their blogs but that is exactly the purpose of mine. If you would rather post here, I do completely understand and I would far rather you post here than not post at all!

@Bartoneus: Thank you very very much for your constructive criticism! I responded to the comments more fully over on my site.

I think Rich would be great at grammatical critique.

All good points and fair enough.

It is of course each bloggers prerogative to choose how they see and use the comments functionality of their blog.

However, my understanding of the word "comment" is that it can be anything from "Very nice, high five!" to "You suck donkey chode!" I don't see there being a way to successfully control the definition of a word---on a per blog basis---that is so open to interpretation.

As for spamming the notes, that is not my concern. I could care less what people want to discuss, I'm not going to chime in unless I have something to say.

I just have always operated under the assumption and firm belief that we hear what we are meant to hear, and that includes both good and bad comments or discussions.

So if I were naive enough to think that having open comments on my blog would protect me from the bad staff, as I feel they're an invitation for discussion and not for receiving opinionated commentary would be tragic.

I hope I haven't come off as harsh on this matter, as I'm not trying to, just throwing my opinion out there. Thanks for listening.

Arthus,

(1) Your most recent post demonstrates a degree of self-knowledge and not taking yourself too, too seriously that is very impressive. It is also a tool that's very important for a good writer to have. (And, on a side note, that's just the kind of thing girls like. So I doubt they're going to be hating you for long, if they even do now.)

This actually made me smile, because it is so honest and so self-aware: "Recently, I have been feeling very sad and depressed for a variety of reasons, most of which have to do with being a 14-year-old boy who looks like something the cat dragged in. After all, spring is in the air. Around this time, I always get upset about how girls hate me. In order to maintain my sanity, I express myself through writing dark, brooding poetry and short stories."

2. As for your story, I like what you're doing very much. If you get pleasure out of really pouring on the dark, brooding stuff, then I'd say go for it in the extreme. Have fun with it.

3. One writing suggestion, something to chew on.

This sentence is a good example of a general writing principle that's very important. The principle is this: it's more effective to show the reader something than to tell them. Here's the sentence that helps demonstrate how this works:

"The rusty gate creaked open with a noise which sent shivers up my spine."

Your images have to stand on their own. The phrase "which sent shivers up my spine" tells the reader how to respond to your image without actually delivering a shivery image. That's because rusty gates that creak open are not necessarily scary. Compare these two (not very artful) examples:

The rusty gate creaked open like my grandfather's arms whenever he reached down to hug me. I walked through the gate and toward the farmhouse, where my father and mother stood, holding hands.

The rusty gate creaked open like the top of a coffin that had been exhumed after many years. The air was dark and still. I made myself walk forward, although my legs seemed very unhappy about that decision.

I know I'm going on and on, but what I'm trying to accomplish here is to demonstrate the value of showing the reader something (the gate's noise is scary) rather than telling him (the noise sent shivers up my spine.)

Others might disagree of course, but this is something you might want to think a little about and watch for in really good writing.

joenewbreed: I prefer not to comment on people's frammar unless it's something glaringly obvious they have either mistakenly said or should know better. I make enough mistakes of my own and a hypocrite is the last thing I want to be.

That said, I'll happily tell you your blog entry is boring if I have to!

J-Mathias,

"You suck, donkey chode" has become my new favorite phrase and I am going to work it into my legal writing as soon and as often as humanly possible! Thank you for that.

I also really admire your willingness to just let people have at it when they've got something to say. I'm a more timid sort, having sort of tender and sensitive feelings. Well, feelings that are as tender and sensitive as you can be for a woman who's taken to shouting "you suck, donkey chode" at the people who piss her off.

xo

@bloglily: Thanks for the fabulous critique!

No, I don't take many things too seriously - even if they may seem sad. Writing does help me to fly up and look down over my life without being caught up in the little dips. Like the stock market, life requires investors to disregard the small variations and watch the general trend. I certainly hope that girls like that kind of thing. (I've got plenty)

I'm glad you like the story and ideas. As for the style, I see exactly what you mean. Being a young writer, I need to work on allowing readers to infer the meaning, rather than simply stating it. This is also a question of remember my audience since when I write for peers in school I cannot expect them to infer much.

Thank you for the fabulous criticism and ideas. In the future, I hope to implement them better in my writing. (1 point for you)

@arthus: so you're involved with sports eh? yeah I know what that's like. It's a lot of fun in fact....sports that is. Well I wish you luck. And listen to bloglily, she's far wiser person than I am when it comes to this kind of stuff.

Yeah I would love it if someone critiqued my blog.. no?

How about if I give back 2 links (old + new address both high on Technorati) and favicon and blog re-design for free?

"You suck, donkey chode" has become my new favorite phrase...

You know, I almost got fired from a job (at Barnes and Noble) for saying something like that in front of (not to) a customer. Actually it was "Wow... [the band playing here tonight] sucks donkey shlong." (We used to bring in musicians to play at the cafe back then.)

@ Rich -- How about Friday Feedback -- I couldn't think of anything clever, so I went with alliteration.

@Gnorb -- There's a long and grand tradition of writers getting fired or coming close to it for simply telling the truth. Keep it up,buddy!

bloglily, when all else fails, fall back on alliteration! I like it.

Shame I know in advance I'll be unavailable the Friday after next (birthday!), but we can almost certainly get some sort of ball rolling tomorrow, methinks.

Do you think some sort of submission process should be defined? And what about the people giving critique: a free-for-all, or a select few volunteers? (I'd lean towards the latter, personally.)

How about:

--If you want to have a post looked at, link to it. Better not to link to your whole blog.

--It's good to ask specific questions, if you have them. (Is this post too long? Was this as funny as I think?) But you don't always have specific questions, and that's okay too.

And I'm actually thinking free for all is good. That way, when you, Rich, are off gallivanting around celebrating your birthday, others will step in. And the asker can take the comments for what they're worth. If this isn't useful, it'll die a natural death.

And now we just have to lure John Baker over here because he is a GOD when it comes to beautiful writing.

That is all I have to say, because I am woman who needs to work on editing things down.

I think a weekly feedback is a great idea!

So I am going to assume this is going to start next week.

I'm ALL about feedback! Especially now, because I'll be honest. I've recently left Xanga in search of a better blogosphere and I finally found you guys. Like as in, I just joined 9rules, today. Mind you, I am not teenaged, Emo nor anorexic and I do value quality content so it was a long time coming--my leaving, that is. So if any of you would be gracious enough to leave me some feedback on my new wp site, I'd be so ever thankful. :) If it's best to wait til bloglily's new feedback thread, I'll understand. ;)

I'm with the others I don't expect readers to critique my writing, it's a personal blog they are meant to critique my thoughts.

I'm in.
Blog Lily:

You can start with this.
This Please.

Yes, ckinniburgh, the first Friday Feedback thread will be on Friday, March 31st.

@estarla -- I just had a look around your blog. You've got a nice, strong voice and I love your insider's look at LA. Very fun. One small point -- I have a hard time reading white type on a dark background, and I know I'm not alone in that -- still, you're in charge of your look! My suggestion is that next Friday you post a link to a particular post. It's easier to give feedback on a specific piece of writing than on an entire blog.

My dear no wicked witch -- I admire you very much for thinking so hard about the issue you address in that post. And I think you are completely spot on in what you say. As for the writing, you could always tinker with a piece like this -- tighten it up a little, maybe get to the meat of it (your great list of suggestions to people for how to avoid behaving differently online than in life) sooner, that sort of thing. But the fundamentals are all there. I'm very impressed.

Thanks so much, bloglily! :) I really appreciate it. I hear you about the white on dark--I'll look at tinkering it.